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	<title>Comments on: Spinoza, Einstein, and the Failure of Reason</title>
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		<title>By: mandrewa</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>mandrewa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-65</guid>
		<description>Chieftain of Seir,

I apologize for this delayed response.

You understate your achievement.  Yes, I realize that Spinoza
is a genius and that basically what you have done in your essay is
to understand what he said and relate and interprete some part of
these ideas to the modern world.

Yes.  But it&#039;s a particularly small set of people that have done
any such thing.

I could have put in a link to Spinoza&#039;s texts and if a thousand
people went to those texts I&#039;d know ahead of time that not one would
get it.

I put in a link to yours, and the odds of understanding are significantly
increased.

It&#039;s also possible -- I don&#039;t know -- that your interpretation, your
lucid reasoning about what Spinoza means, is unique.

Here are the nails that you drove that particularly jumped out at me.

a. Spinoza is arguably the beginning of the modern era.  Many of
his propositions are now taken as default assumptions.  These
propositions seem ordinary and unexceptional today because we assume
them, but at the time they were disturbing.

b. The shoe is still dropping.  Although many of Spinoza&#039;s ideas
are now the unexamined assumptions of modern man, some parts have still
not been appreciated.

c. Spinoza&#039;s work is in part a proof that God (in the sense that is
normally meant) does not exist.

d. We now know that one of Spinoza&#039;s basic assumptions has been peculiarly
falsified.

e. Since Spinoza&#039;s reasoning is a good part of the foundation of science
and many other things, all these things now have a hole at their
foundation.

f. No solution to the problem is in sight.  The universe seems a wilder
and stranger place than what was at one time believed.  In particular
the possibility of the existence of some kind of God has been reopened.

Ok.

Moving on to your self-deprecrating assertion above that you are a &quot;ignorant
fundamentalist hillbilly,&quot; I think I understand what you&#039;re saying.

By &quot;ignorant&quot; you mean in the trivial and ordinary sense that of all the
possible things to know you know hardly any, while in the particular
sense it&#039;s a political comment that you don&#039;t necessarily believe what
the in-clique -- the right sort of people -- believe.  It means you&#039;re
proud you flunked Political Conformity 101.

By &quot;hillbilly&quot; you mean you were raised in the Appalachians.

By &quot;fundamentalist&quot; you mean you&#039;re parents were fundamentalist and
you yourself were raised in that tradition, and you don&#039;t believe that
fundamentalists are the monsters that those who major in Conformity
believe.  But I refuse to believe that you yourself think that the Bible
is to be taken literally.

I realize that you&#039;re a very smart person and it&#039;s possible you&#039;re
going to take my disbelief as a challenge to make the implausible sound
plausible, but I&#039;ll tell you already I&#039;m not buying it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chieftain of Seir,</p>
<p>I apologize for this delayed response.</p>
<p>You understate your achievement.  Yes, I realize that Spinoza<br />
is a genius and that basically what you have done in your essay is<br />
to understand what he said and relate and interprete some part of<br />
these ideas to the modern world.</p>
<p>Yes.  But it&#8217;s a particularly small set of people that have done<br />
any such thing.</p>
<p>I could have put in a link to Spinoza&#8217;s texts and if a thousand<br />
people went to those texts I&#8217;d know ahead of time that not one would<br />
get it.</p>
<p>I put in a link to yours, and the odds of understanding are significantly<br />
increased.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also possible &#8212; I don&#8217;t know &#8212; that your interpretation, your<br />
lucid reasoning about what Spinoza means, is unique.</p>
<p>Here are the nails that you drove that particularly jumped out at me.</p>
<p>a. Spinoza is arguably the beginning of the modern era.  Many of<br />
his propositions are now taken as default assumptions.  These<br />
propositions seem ordinary and unexceptional today because we assume<br />
them, but at the time they were disturbing.</p>
<p>b. The shoe is still dropping.  Although many of Spinoza&#8217;s ideas<br />
are now the unexamined assumptions of modern man, some parts have still<br />
not been appreciated.</p>
<p>c. Spinoza&#8217;s work is in part a proof that God (in the sense that is<br />
normally meant) does not exist.</p>
<p>d. We now know that one of Spinoza&#8217;s basic assumptions has been peculiarly<br />
falsified.</p>
<p>e. Since Spinoza&#8217;s reasoning is a good part of the foundation of science<br />
and many other things, all these things now have a hole at their<br />
foundation.</p>
<p>f. No solution to the problem is in sight.  The universe seems a wilder<br />
and stranger place than what was at one time believed.  In particular<br />
the possibility of the existence of some kind of God has been reopened.</p>
<p>Ok.</p>
<p>Moving on to your self-deprecrating assertion above that you are a &#8220;ignorant<br />
fundamentalist hillbilly,&#8221; I think I understand what you&#8217;re saying.</p>
<p>By &#8220;ignorant&#8221; you mean in the trivial and ordinary sense that of all the<br />
possible things to know you know hardly any, while in the particular<br />
sense it&#8217;s a political comment that you don&#8217;t necessarily believe what<br />
the in-clique &#8212; the right sort of people &#8212; believe.  It means you&#8217;re<br />
proud you flunked Political Conformity 101.</p>
<p>By &#8220;hillbilly&#8221; you mean you were raised in the Appalachians.</p>
<p>By &#8220;fundamentalist&#8221; you mean you&#8217;re parents were fundamentalist and<br />
you yourself were raised in that tradition, and you don&#8217;t believe that<br />
fundamentalists are the monsters that those who major in Conformity<br />
believe.  But I refuse to believe that you yourself think that the Bible<br />
is to be taken literally.</p>
<p>I realize that you&#8217;re a very smart person and it&#8217;s possible you&#8217;re<br />
going to take my disbelief as a challenge to make the implausible sound<br />
plausible, but I&#8217;ll tell you already I&#8217;m not buying it.</p>
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		<title>By: mandrewa</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>mandrewa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-64</guid>
		<description>Well Cheshire Cat, I think I&#039;ll hold off on that criticism for a bit.

I just noticed your comment other at the Science Blogs, and now this
one here.

Here&#039;s my response.  Which I also posted there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Cheshire Cat, I think I&#8217;ll hold off on that criticism for a bit.</p>
<p>I just noticed your comment other at the Science Blogs, and now this<br />
one here.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my response.  Which I also posted there.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheshire Cat</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheshire Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-63</guid>
		<description>Mandrewa,

We love criticism. Especially intelligent criticism. If the Chief got a little more of that, he might even write a few more essays. As it is, he is sulking in his wilderness home.

Cheshire Cat</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mandrewa,</p>
<p>We love criticism. Especially intelligent criticism. If the Chief got a little more of that, he might even write a few more essays. As it is, he is sulking in his wilderness home.</p>
<p>Cheshire Cat</p>
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		<title>By: mandrewa</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-62</link>
		<dc:creator>mandrewa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-62</guid>
		<description>This is an amazing essay.  Just amazingly good.  It&#039;s to late
at night to say much more.  I hope I&#039;ll get back to it.

And when I do it&#039;ll be to make a few criticisms.  But despite
that, please understand: I wish I could write and think this
clearly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an amazing essay.  Just amazingly good.  It&#8217;s to late<br />
at night to say much more.  I hope I&#8217;ll get back to it.</p>
<p>And when I do it&#8217;ll be to make a few criticisms.  But despite<br />
that, please understand: I wish I could write and think this<br />
clearly.</p>
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		<title>By: A Personal Idealization &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-61</link>
		<dc:creator>A Personal Idealization &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 01:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-61</guid>
		<description>[...] I was working on the essay that was to become Spinoza, Einstein, and the Failure of Reason. Or at least, I was trying to work on it. I was not having much luck. To take a break I started reading some post on Spengler&#8217;s Forum. At that time it was not the cess pit that it is now. Anyway, some of the posters that I respected were making the biggest mistake that you can make on a forum. They were taking a troll seriously. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I was working on the essay that was to become Spinoza, Einstein, and the Failure of Reason. Or at least, I was trying to work on it. I was not having much luck. To take a break I started reading some post on Spengler&#8217;s Forum. At that time it was not the cess pit that it is now. Anyway, some of the posters that I respected were making the biggest mistake that you can make on a forum. They were taking a troll seriously. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Why I vary my arguments &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-59</link>
		<dc:creator>Why I vary my arguments &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-59</guid>
		<description>[...] If youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re the type who is willing to entertain philosophical arguments, I argued this position in my essay called Spinoza, Einstein, and the Failure of Reason. But if you are not the type who likes to deal with philosophical arguments, you will probably find that the essay is too much too deal with.  I would like to deal with the issue in a simpler manner, but I am not sure I can. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] If youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re the type who is willing to entertain philosophical arguments, I argued this position in my essay called Spinoza, Einstein, and the Failure of Reason. But if you are not the type who likes to deal with philosophical arguments, you will probably find that the essay is too much too deal with.  I would like to deal with the issue in a simpler manner, but I am not sure I can. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: On the question of Psychology &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>On the question of Psychology &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-60</guid>
		<description>[...] What makes us think that we are better than the likes of Mark Steyn? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What makes us think that we are better than the likes of Mark Steyn? [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ape Man&#8217;s guide to the Internet: The Belmont Club &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>Ape Man&#8217;s guide to the Internet: The Belmont Club &#187; Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 00:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-58</guid>
		<description>[...] (as a side note, my two fans might be interested to note that I had Fernandez, Spengler, and a few others in mind when I wrote this essay) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (as a side note, my two fans might be interested to note that I had Fernandez, Spengler, and a few others in mind when I wrote this essay) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Invoking the Tooth Fairy TwiceÃ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ &#187; The Ethereal Voice</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Invoking the Tooth Fairy TwiceÃ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ &#187; The Ethereal Voice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-57</guid>
		<description>[...] The article makes me think of the argument in Spinoza, Einstein, and the Failure of Reason. Especially those places in the article were they are speculating that the answer might be more complicated then we can conceive. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The article makes me think of the argument in Spinoza, Einstein, and the Failure of Reason. Especially those places in the article were they are speculating that the answer might be more complicated then we can conceive. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A review of the Chieftain of Seir&#8217;s latest essayÃ¢â‚¬Â¦</title>
		<link>http://etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/2006/10/15/spinoza-einstein-and-the-failure-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>Ape Man &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A review of the Chieftain of Seir&#8217;s latest essayÃ¢â‚¬Â¦</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 00:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.etherealland.com/cheiftainofseir/?p=11#comment-56</guid>
		<description>[...] I think one of the reasons that the Chief was so eager to jump all over the Grumpy Old Man&#8217;s question is that he has been banging his head against another essay he is trying to write. In the Chief&#8217;s bizarre little system, there was an essay that was supposed to come after Spinoza, Einstein, and Failure of Reason. It is a measure of the Chief&#8217;s frustration with the essay that was supposed to come next that he has put up an essay that does not belong there. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I think one of the reasons that the Chief was so eager to jump all over the Grumpy Old Man&#8217;s question is that he has been banging his head against another essay he is trying to write. In the Chief&#8217;s bizarre little system, there was an essay that was supposed to come after Spinoza, Einstein, and Failure of Reason. It is a measure of the Chief&#8217;s frustration with the essay that was supposed to come next that he has put up an essay that does not belong there. [...]</p>
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